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| Maybe it was about the money but maybe it is as it says and there is no conspiracy. Lotte is a bit of a loose cannon off the field and that has not held him in good stead. If you play exceptionally well and are in form then off field indiscretions might be overlooked. However, if you are not producing, then those indiscretions are highlighted by you lack of form. He definitely was paid a lot and last season and this season had not lived up to the amount of his contract. Deans did not pick him, according to Deans, because of a lack of form. Maybe GH could learn from that and drop Rokocoko. Put together the lack of form and his off field behaviour and you have a firing in the making. At the end of the day, Lotte has to shoulder much of this responsibility. Otherwise, you can be a superstar and earn superstar money and not perform and not conduct yourself correctly and still collect the big bucks. That is not how it works...... Blessings mel |
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| Froggy, I wasnât implying that there was racism linked to his sacking. What I was trying to say that the bloody pen pushers like to have their two bobs worth on players abilities even though they have no god given talent or played at a higher level of rugby themselves. Rugby is so fabricated these days and boring because your coach or selectors don't like loose canons out on the field that take risks (i.e. David Campese would never make the Wallabies these Days) Lote has god given and natural talent and to bottle it up is a total waste of money. Also to be on his last warning for something he did three years or so ago is ridicolous. You would be on a good behaviour bond if you were a criminal and get off lightly for what he had done. I think there were a lock of horns where Lote wouldnât agree with these pen pushers and thus they used these misdemeanours against him. Why? ...Because they can!! There seems to be different rules in Union depending on who you are in the rugby ranks. Whoâs to say that perspective playersâ managers were in John OâNeilâs ear about Loteâs performance and wanted their clients picked ahead of him? Personally I only remember the Mad Monday incident and that about it. We can compare Ben Cousins, The Johns Brothers and other rugby League incidents that would make Lote look like an angel. Thereâs something dark and sinister thatâs happening and we all know about it soon. |
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| Couple of things. First, albertfullavai, you say you've got to the bottom of the story? Well come on man, what is it? Ado, whether I agree with you or not really depends on the reason for the sacking. If it's trivial, I'm with you, but given I don't know what the incident was, I can't really say. As to them not making a reason public, I think the impending legal action probably makes that impossible, sadly. Panther, I really hope your racist theory is wrong. I have to say I see no evidence of it, apart from the fact that Lote is black, which doesn't really establish the fact. There are any number of black players from all ethnicities that have had wonderful rugby careers without evidence of discrimination. As to Deans, I don't know if I hold to the theory being presented here regarding Lote's play for NSW. Deans wants wingers a) with genuine pace and b) with a kicking game that allows them to slot into fullback when the fb comes up. Lote has neither attribute. Froggy |
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| Gale, no question it'll end up being about money. However if they have him on a technicality or a minor infringement and they used this as the reason to rip up his contract and if they not been consistent in dishing out punishment to any others who may have been involved, then I hope LT's lawyers nail them in the courts. The ARU might be well within their legal rights to tear up his contract, but have they been fair? Or as ciu suggests, were they simply looking for an avenue to cut their losses. And you're right about me being emotional. Call me old fashioned but anyone who has worn the green and gold of their country proudly and always given their best on the field in 67 tests deserves better than to be dismissed in this fashion. I never said he was a saint off the field and I'm not a big fan of his personally, but to kill him or any other player of his standing in such a piss poor fashion is woeful. They owe the games stakeholders a better explanation than the one they've given. Or rather, the none that they've given. But I guess thats what happens when people who have never played the game actually run the game. |
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| I'm glad he's gone, however he is a world class winger O'neil did the AB's a favour | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Panther, I think if you changed the words Caucasian and Blackman to Party A and Party B, it would still be the same, as Lote and the ARU have signed a legal contract. The circumstances won't change in that respect. However, I know what you're thinking, but I reckon if Lote was a Kenyan, Chinese or a pale looking Aussie, and acted just like Lote, I'm sure that person would be sacked as well. His behaviour is, was and always will be a worry. That's his nature. He has paid the price for his bad behaviour (we presume). There are other possible side issues that have been discussed by other posters here. At the moment, it is all hearsay. People are just giving their opinions based on their beliefs and judgement of O'Neil and Lote. Panther, yours could be spot on, but at this stage of the argument, I doubt it, but it is credible. |
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| Gale,i'm sure that Lote breached the team protocols....but the thing is, is really easy to find a player making a minor mistake and breaching one of the protocols...if you really wanna find that player breaching the protocols... you are saying that is just a huge coincidence that Lote is not selected for the Wallabies anymore and suddenly he does a mysterious bad thing and gets sacked? panther....you touch some really good points in your list,even though i think is again about the money...let me explain... Lote is told by the Waratahs staff to forget about scoring tries and just being a wing,he is told to roam across the field and look for the ball,involve himself in more play than just the wing...he does that come the Wallabies selection time,he is told by Deans that he is looking for a specialist wing,not somebody that roams across the field,he does not like that in a winger...so sorry Lote,no room for you,you will have your opportunity...someday... Lote misses Test matches...and each Test mach you play is worth over $11,000...and that stuff is not extra cash that you get on top of your contract if you play for the Wallabies,the Test match payment is included in the total value of the top up contract each player receives from the ARU... so suddenly how the selection looks Lote finds himself missing about 100,000 or more from his contract for this year...i would be surprised if some harsh words were not exchanged between Lote and the rugby hierarchy(the sort of,i play how i'm told and now cause of that i miss Test matches and my cash?) now Gale...i must be like the king of conspiracy theories and a really emotive guy in your eyes,loool....but i really don't believe in coincidences... and another thing....i don't think the NSWRU knew so much about this whole thing...they just asked the ARU if it is possible that Lote continues his contract for the Waratahs in the S14...the way they put it....he did not break any rules with us... |
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| Ado, you're a businessman. I'm surprised how emotive you are being. IMO it's not about who likes who or who's being gentlemanly: it's not even about saving salaries - it's about the terms of a contract. Both parties are not talking to give them best opportunity to leverage at the bargaining table. I reiterate, it will be surprising if Lote has not breached contract and ARU are not within their rights to terminate. IMO the battle will be around how much ARU are prepared to concede in severance $ to avoid a legal circus with a publicly adored sportsman. |
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| the story is being held tight, took me two days to get to the bottom of it. yes it may have been trivial but definately a breach of contract | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Well call me a cynic, but right now I'm sitting with both feet firmly planted in ciumegul's camp. Gale, don't get to caught up with ONiel and the ARU's gentlemanly conduct in regard to players. As big a fan I am of his administrations ability to turn things around, he is known business hard ass and can be frightfully difficult to work with from a players perspective. Just ask GG. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| As long as there is no official line as to what has happened, the speculation will continue. And that should surprise no-one, arguable on of the highest profile players in the country has his contratc torn up, and no-one is saying why. The thing that really surprises me is that there has been no leak. Antyime this sort of thing has happened before (in any sport) usually within 24 hours it's all over the papers, someone was there, a barman, bystander, team-mate, some-one can't help themselves. That this hasn't happened I find remarkable. Froggy |
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| Smegul, I'm as shocked - and disappointed - as the next guy. But that's not the same as a wierd conspiracy theory. Ado, in answer to your first question, ABSOLUTELY. He will want to fight to retain as much of the contract value as possible. The lawyers aren't necessarily there to 'win'. They may well be there to salvage as much as possible and go for out of court settlement. O'Neill will know this already. Although ARU will be within their rights, they know a protracted court battle with a public favourite will not benefit them or the code. I have little doubt that Tuquiri has been sacked for good reason. Lawyers are a given to get him what they can. |
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| the thing is that all this saga was done poorly the timing was really poorly chosen,and the only 1 to blame for the conspiracy theories Gale, is the ARU...and because of the way they dealt with all this matter nobody can put any reality on this... and if you wanna hear my conspiracy theory,Mr Deans suggested to Mr O'Neill that Lote will barely play from now on,and as a really good banker that he is,Mr O'Neill found a way to save that cash,1.4 million for the next 2 years to be exact....if it was a really big reason that led to his sacking,Mr O'Neill would not have to remind everybody all the time that Lote was on his last chance,and that the letter from 2007 clearly stipulated that any minor breach of conduct will bring forward a review of Lote's contract... but again,as bad as it sounds...i really hope Lote did something really bad that warrants his sacking...because if he did not,there will not be too many happy days for rugby in this country in the next months |
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| Ado....you are right,the limit on the S14 clubs on a contract is 150k...and those contracts are not linked to the ARU contract...but each contract that a state offers to a player to play in the S14 must be approved by the ARU...and if the player qualifies to the Wallabies squad the ARU offers them an additional contract and extra money...and they will be payed those extra money for the duration of the contract regardless if they will be again selected in the Wallabies squad or not for the following years while the contract is ongoing... Lote's contract included third party endorsements,and if i remember correctly it was Vodafone, who was one of the ARU's major sponsors 2 years ago. Gale....c'mon mate...you don't have to be Riddler to be a bit shocked by all this mess...and is normal that everybody wants to know a reason for all this happening...in the Australian this morning they reckon that all is due to a breach of the team protocols in the Wallabies hotel before the 1st test against Italy...nothing major,but a breach of team protocol...and since he was on his last warning from 2 years ago,they decided is time to act...true or not?who knows...another theory here and O'Neill stated few times that Lote was on his last warning,thing that started all this now...a bit of b.s. if you ask me...Lote was constantly praised in the past 2 years for his behaviour,leadership,trai ning intensity,commitment,etc, etc..by the NSWRU,ARU and even Deans... and i will not be surprised at all to hear that Deans has something to do with it...not that he is the mastermind...but that he did not have any objections,maybe the opposite when he heard the suggestion that would be good to get rid of Lote...all his talk about picking players based on form only is a biiiig load of s.h.i.t if you ask me...on what bloody form did he pick Peter Hynes?the guy mostly did not play in the last 4 months and before that he did not have any brilliant season either... to be continued |
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| To you point Gale, if there were no questionable or contentious grounds by which his contract was terminated would he have raced out and hired 2 very expensive lawyers to act on his behalf? Symonds didn't when he had his contract torn up by the ACB, because the grounds for his dismissal were very clear. Sailor the same. I'm not suggesting for a minute that the ARU don't have valid reasons for doing this, only that LT's actions in appointing a defence team so quickly indicate that there is an area of dispute. I can't answer your point on his NSW deal because I have no idea if there are any 3rd parties endorsements as part of it. I thought, and I could be totally wrong that all S14 Oz clubs had a 150K upper limit on players. I dont know whether his two contracts are linked either. So its all guesswork here. And I guess it will all come out in the dirty laundry. |
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| By: galeforceperth 20 minutes ago "...It certainly is juicy journalistic fodder at the moment, but guys, c'mon. Let's put a bit more reality around the issue..." ..... "never let the truth get in the way of a good story" (attributed to Mark Twain) |
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| how ridiculous Ado et al. I'd expect this from Riddler - the king of conspiracy theories! LOL! Can we look at this with a bit less emotion for a tick? What sort of a business sacks their highest profile person, who is potentially backed by significant financial & legal representation and can end up costing them significantly, purely on the basis of saving money without clear reason? There is an unacceptable risk/return issue involved here, so common sense dictates that there must be a REAL reason behind why he has been sacked, not some cost-cutting measure with no tenable basis for sacking. There appear to be 2 key things indicating fair reason for terminaton: - 1. Tuquiri has said NOTHING as yet. So regardless of who is wrong or right, it is obviously not a straightforward 'unfair dismissal' case as you guys seem to be indicating. He would appear to have done enough to result in this action being taken on his contract by ARU with expectation of termination. 2. The Waratahs made no attempt to argue or block the ARU's proposed action - they concurred. So this would indicate either consensus or collusion. My guess is the former rather than the latter. And yes, you can argue they want to save money too, but they need every good player they can get after this year's performance. It certainly is juicy journalistic fodder at the moment, but guys, c'mon. Let's put a bit more reality around the issue... |
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| Deans has said that if Lotte was available for selection he would definitely be considered for the team. The decision not to play him was based purely on form not on any other reason. His form had not be good of late. However, as good as he was, I believe he would have returned to form. That being the case, I also believe he would have been playing for the WAL´s this year. Deans now has no choice as Lotte is not available for consideration and that decision was made by the powers that be and not by Deans. There is a side of this that needs to be considered. If a star player continues to break the code of conduct in his contract, he cannot continue to do so without consequence. We teach our children that and these guys should be old enough and mature enough to know that. We the big contract comes certain expectations of behaviour. This is not unreasonable and it is part of the conditions of his contract. If he cannot live by that he needs to receive the consequence. According to O´Niel that is exactly what has happened. If that is not the truth and O´Neil is acting out some kind of vendetta, then O´Neil should loose his job. Blessings mel |
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| I second that Ado!! Well said and i do guess if Deans was not a fan he would not be turning up at club games watching Lotes performance. Well i guess cutting someones contract short is like making them redundant right? So i'd think that Lote would get his 13 weeks paid out.I generally think everyone been a bit hard on the bloke....i guess the Wallabies are in winning form now so that will be bringing in people through the gates, like all the other posers that have turned up on this blog over the last week. Where the "f" were they when the Walla's were losing..."watching Cricket", but now Aussies are losing the Cricket they need to jump onto another band wagon..... |
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| Froggy I reckon you could be on the money that ONiel is looking for a way to cut his salary bill. If he has used some minor indiscretion to sever LT then he is going to come unstuck big time for a whole bunch of reasons. There has also been speculation that Deans isn't a fan. Whether this is true or not I dont know, but it's been suggested that as the AB's backs coach he was responsible for the demise of Cullen, Umaga and a few others. I wouldn't have a clue re this, be interested to see what our K1 friends have to say. Irrespective of his contract amount, you don't just ditch a 67 test veteran in this manner. I don't care whether its LT or Fred Smith, its poor form. It sounds to me like the decision was made behind closed doors at ARU HQ and delivered without consultation or even much explanation. I guess we cant really make our minds up until we know the truth. But I will say this, LT & his management have marched straight in appointed two of Sydney's top silks - That tells me that there is a real cloud over the validity of his sacking. Just one point to all those bagging his contract amount. There are, in my experience two types of footballers. Ones who get paid to play the game. Other who get paid a lot more because they brings the crowds through the turnstiles and eyes to the TV. They also have a massive influence on the growth of the sport because they are in effect rock star sportsman. Irrespective of what your own personal view if him as a player is, Lote is clearly the latter. And that's why he gets the big bucks. Is he the amabassador the game needs? Doubt it. Is he worth the coin? Probably not, but good on him for getting the max when he did. I'd have done the same if it was me. Is he deserving of a test spot? I reckon he is one of the best 2 we have sure. Has whatever he's done warrant his dismissal in this fashion? I have no idea. But I sincerely hope it doesn't bit us in the rear end. However I have a feeling it will. |
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| to be honest he isn't worth spending $1 million a year on. got to feel for the guy though ARU must be regretting setting up the contract in 2007 in the first place. he had an alright season last year but we could have been blooding our younger, faster, more promising wingers. hopefully this fiasco won't affect the team too much. could get very messy |
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| I hear a lot of speculation as to why the contract has been cancelled, O'Neil hates him, they've got it in for the Leaguies, need the money, he was on his last chance & stuffed up etc, but little that seems to have much authority about it. Officially nothing, legal action pending and no-one saying anything to protect their respective cases. I have to say, I have been able to glean nothing certain. Can anyone tell me how long his contract had to run? (by the way, add the likes of D1ck & Ken Thornett, Phil Hawthorn, John Brass, Rex Mossop, Scott Gourlay, Ricky Stuart, etc etc to your Union to League greats) froggy |
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| ex ceo flowers is an idiot. o'neill is an impressive guy. he has run some of australia's biggest corporations and he's the best sport administrator this country will ever see. you can be sure he checked his legal position carefully before he moved on lotte, and good riddence to the overpaid poser. pretty easy not to get fired if you ask me - just do your job and don't p*ss your boss off. lotte can now hang out with his coke sniffing mates sailor and walker and all the other dead beat leagies who have tried but failed to cut it in rugby | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
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