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| donlandrigan Your perception is that there is three major sports but what was your point in reference to legal challenges against drafts? Reads to me like you may be the one that has a few tickets on himself. The NHL is still a billion dollar sports league with players from Canada, the US, and all over Europe. It's the principle of drafts and salary caps that at question in this thread. Baseball has an amateur draft and the NHL has a entry [lottery] draft and the NFL and NBA [lottery] have college drafts. What's the relationship of each draft to completive balance and is there an appropriate parallel to an AFL draft? The NFL draft went from 18 picks down to just 7 picks over the years, and now the NBA is just 2 rounds. Players have sued the leagues and won [Smith vs. NFL, 1978] claiming they're restrictive. If an AFL player nominates and is still undrafted should he become an unrestricted free agent for that year, free to sign with anyone? There should probably be two questions to be discussed in is thread: a) is the draft a useful and legitimate tool for a pro sports league's quest for competitive balance, or should it be abolished and the salary cap kept; and b) why does christhav advocate the principle of socialism yet seem to be so against the draft, which is a great - at least in theory - for evening out the playing field. At least he was trying to put up a rational point from HIS perspective. I can see no such cognizant or investigative discussions are going to place here. I've got better things to do than post against ad hominems and school yard material. Ciao! |
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| <<< Now look at the Lions and Swans - of the 100 players from the two states there are around 40 of them in just these two sides! >>> Most of these came via the rookie list, or are still there. The rookie list is the one way around the draft. WA and SA clubs also use it. But my basic point about the draft remains. It's illegal, immoral, rewards losers & is open to corruption, and unnecessary when you also have a salary cap. Most people see to agree on the third point (about tanking). That alone is enough reason to get rid of it. But I will rest my case for now. :-) |
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| One minute you are saying the draft should be removed, the next you are saying the game should grow interstate. C'mon, if it wasn't for the draft the Brisbane and Sydney sides would have struggled to make it through the late 80's and early 90's. Neither would have had any real chance at recruiting the talented kids from traditional footballing states (the same kids you keep telling us deserve to be playing for their 'home' clubs!). Now times have changed and Queensland and NSW provide the comp with almost 100 players between them, a direct result of the draft - ie, the draft allowed these two sides access to star players, the star players attracted local kids to the game and the local kids went on to become AFL standard. Your argument about the draft preventing local talent from playing at home also doesn't hold water - look at the WA and SA clubs lists and see just how many locals are on them - the vast majority! Now look at the Lions and Swans - of the 100 players from the two states there are around 40 of them in just these two sides! So, basically, if the local talent is available to clubs they tend to draft them, if it isn't the draft gives them a chance at accessing talent from accross the nation. Vic clubs still take most of their pics from Victoria, naturally the trully talented kids in the draft go first, regardless of where they are from, but I doubt any top 10 draftee would really care - going to a bottom club pretty well guarantees they'll see senior action in their first year! Plus, just because a kid is from WA, SA, NSW or whatever, doesn't mean he wants to play for his states teams. Jason Dunstall turned down a million dollars from the Bears to stay a Hawk. Brown and Black at the Lions have stated they have no desire to return to Vic and WA etc. |
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| <<Sorry donlandrigan, but your resposes are sillier and more off beam each post.>> No need to be sorry, you're simply a bitter, twisted ol' tool. Sillier? You're the one stating that nothing's getting done because everyone has a 'vested interest'. It's you asserting that it's illegal, ONLY YOU. <<Now I'm not a lawyer>> No sh1t Sherlock! Got it. We all get it. You don't like the draft. Blah-effin'-blah. Cry me a river and all that. Goddamn cryin' interstate tool. Find a bridge. |
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| no I ain't saying the game shouldn't grow... draft does not stop that! all clubs get their draft picks, if they want a local player they can draft him if he is still available. If he is drafted by a interstate club then he has every right to not accept it and miss out for that draft and wait for the next one! likewise the club could negotiate with other clubs and trade their picks or other players to get a higher pick if they don't think the player will be around long enough for their first pick! How do you think Brisbane got Voss? and no one is making your case you are arguing for the sake of nuffing better to do :) |
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| <<< That is what happens when you push into non-AFL states >>> So what are you saying. The AFL shouldn't play in NSW or Qld?? <<<they are now starting to get players come through and they can go after them if they choose to just like any and every other team!>>> Oh really? Funny, I thought there was a draft that stopped that sort of thing! You are making my case! |
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| << so u saying the eagles should be given salary cap assistance >> Of course not. WA is a traditional footy state and (despite the draft) they (Eagles, Dockers, Crows, Power) probably have more home grown players than most clubs. On prize money, I think the incentive to win a flag is bigger than just the money! Why does anyone play competitive sport? They like to win. But perhaps the prize money should be greater than it is. |
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| my point about income was referring to incentive to play finals! otherwise why else would they be competing in the competition! sheesh! u r really trying to keep the argument going aren't you! |
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| so u saying the eagles should be given salary cap assistance for all their non-west australian players? just to name one team ie braun, wirrapunda, Hurn, ebert etc... "The Swans and Lions naturally had a higher % of interstate recruits" That is what happens when you push into non-AFL states and copped heaps of assistance to build the teams up but they are now starting to get players come through and they can go after them if they choose to just like any and every other team! |
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| <<< how much more help do sydney and brisbane need? >>> Let's not go over this again. Obviously in a draft system, it is harder to retain players who are drafted from footy tradidional states. The Swans and Lions naturally had a higher % of interstate recruits, hence the retention allowance (which no longer exists thanks to Eddie and his Vic mates). That's a simple but reasonable explanation. Remember it was introduced when the Swans and Lions were fighting over the wooden spoon and were recovering from the disaster of private ownerships. They needed that assistance then, perhaps no so much now. Prize money and finals gate takings are a drop in the ocean. Anyway, it's not about overall income, when there's a salary cap. Not sure of your point there. |
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| <<< that was a state based competition back then wasn't it? >>> Yes it was. Just like the VFL and WAFL were. Your point? |
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| rugby leage 1971 .... that was a state based competition back then wasn't it? | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| how much more help do sydney and brisbane need? if they get helps then why should ALL other clubs miss out? clubs who make the finals 10 out of the last 11 years or whatever get more money fro mteh crowds that they get in finals and plus then there is the prize money of winning the GF. Also, the chances of pulling more supporters due to on-field success, do you honestly think any team would knock back a premiership for one player in the draft? If those top teams really want that number 1 draft pick they could always negotiate with any of their players so they could be traded ie Judd trade. |
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| Sorry donlandrigan, but your resposes are sillier and more off beam each post. Governments and Federal Police, eh? I think they have better things to do than chase the AFL draft. Now I'm not a lawyer, but there are many things that are illegal, once tested in court, but which will continue to occur without that test. My contention that the AFL draft is illegal is based on simple legal precedent regarding restraint of trade. Remember Ross Glendinning? He eventually got to play for North Melbourne, because the VFL and WAFL knew they would lose in court so they settled. The reality is that in Aussie Rules, the system or recruitment and retention of players has always been legally flawed. Not just the draft, but zoning and other previous systems. They all involved restraints of trade, which were first deemed illegal in the Tutty case in rugby league in 1971. |
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| <<< What happened with you? Did a mate get drafted to a Melbourne club? Did Sydney miss out on a talented NSW.... Why are you so bitter and resentful towards a system you have NO INVOLVEMENT in whatsoever? >>> Nye Ninch, I guess I could say "no, I just have a social conscience" but that would get you all going even more. (And no, I'm not a Bible basher!) Who says I have no involvement? I am involved as a footy tragic who discovered, while living interstate and since, that AFL is the best code, and adopted and joined my local club, the Swans. My objection to the draft is not a Swans thing, although it could be argued they have been disadvantaged by the fact they have made the finals 10 of the last 12 years by playing their guts out with supposedly no talent, and therefore don't get early picks. You have a fair point in saying that nobody has yet challenged the draft in court. But it is tought to expect a young kid to take that on! It will happen one day though. It might be Eddie "Self Interest" McGuire, or a punter who loses $$$ on a tanked game, or a delisted player. My "bitterness and resentment" as you call it, is at those in Victoria who still resent the national competition, and then talk, hand on heart, about "level playing fields" and "equality" while propping up 10 Vic clubs with handouts but denying the Swans and Lions reasonable concessions given their regional circumstances. The draft is only a part of this but it really irks me to hear "the draft is sacrosanct...the cornerstone of the game" etc. |
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| Too true, you're so goddamn ugly, it makes me want to fall down and puke. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Unlike you don, everytime you see me you melt and go weak at the knees. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| You're right nye... he does have that 'jilted-lover' look about him! ;) | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| Blessed are anyone with a vested interest in the status quo, what Jesus blatantly fails to see is it is the meek who are the problem. I know you're trying to make a serious point, but all you did was remind me of the Life of Brian, classic stuff! It seems to me that while you attack others for having a 'vested interest in the status quo' you appear to be one who is keen to change things for the sake of change. If this system IS illegal, don't you think that of the thousands of draftees that ONE, just one, would have taken it to court having been drafted by a club they dislike?! The fact is that if it is illegal, it is adhered to by everyone because it is in the best interests of all parties. What happened with you? Did a mate get drafted to a Melbourne club? Did Sydney miss out on a talented NSW kid because they were beaten to him in the draft by a Melbourne club? Why are you so bitter and resentful towards a system you have NO INVOLVEMENT in whatsoever? At the end of the day clubs speak to potential draftees and their families before draft day. If the kid is 100% sure they are not prepared to leave home to play I can guarantee the other clubs will generally not draft him. Even if they do, the kid still doesn't have to sign a contract, he has every right to say "I'm not going" - it has happened before. |
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| <<Ummm...each of the 4 major US sports leagues have a different draft system.>> Sorry carlesterfavre, Hockey is no longer considered an *ahem* 'major' sport. And Mr-know-it-all-better-tha n-anyone-else chrishav... EVERYBODY in the process has a 'vested interest', right down to the players. Hell, even the FANS have a vested interest (of getting the best player available). So... even the Federal Police have a part to play? Because that's what you're saying: that EVERYONE - including the Government & the judiciary system - are taking part in collusion. So, how you can type the above premise, then have the temerity to call ANYONE ignorant, naive, or have a lack of moral perspective, is - quite frankly - hilarious. You think it lacks 'moral perspective'? WTF are you - some kind of new age, bible-thumping, soap-boxing evangelist? Get a grip. Nice rebuttal too btw. Those laughing at your assertions (because that's what it's come down to): Offering reasoned criticism. You: No way! What you said is 'absolute garbage'. Nicely thought out. Speaking of 'vested interest', obvious at this point that you're not going to say "oh gee, maybe asserting that everybody the government-down is involved in a conspiracy bigger than anything this nation has seen before...". So you'll continue to rant and rail at the wind. Oh well, at least you're mildly amusing. |
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| chris - I am sure if you felt that way you could contact Nixon who is a manager of quite a few of the footballers and org *** e takign the AFL to court........ That way we could all laugh when it doesn't work :) |
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| <<< You're painting yourself as more knowledgeable than those that do it for a living? >>> No, donlandrigan, but the people you refer to obviously have a vested interest in the status quo. They know what they are doing is illegal, but they aren't about to give themselves up, are they? Most of your post attacking my comments is absolute garbage, and you have misquoted me, taken me out of context and shown your own ignorance, naivete, lack of moral perspective ("as long as we're making $$$ everything's ok Jack") and a typical smug, head in the sand attitude that nothing could ever be better than the status quo in AFL footy. |
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| To my understanding an AFL CBA is not ratified in the Industrial Relations Commission, it's just an agreement bargained by the collective parties to create a win/win environment for the sport; thus, most elements if challenged seriously can be defeated in court. If there's a special law out there somewhere that allows the AFL to legally operate a draft, etc, the NRL [draft defeated and unrestricted free agency - while players are still signed to a club!] and the struggling NBL [unrestricted free agency] would sure like to know about it. And so would I. There's a unique difference between the AFL and US sports being that American teams are privately owned (franchises [AFL are licences]) which leads competitions like the NFL to indulge in cartel behaviour: revenue sharing, draft, weighted draw, etc. It was back in the 1970s that then-owner of the NFL's Cleveland Browns said "we're 28 republicans who vote socialist." Without socialist measures in the AFL some teams become McDonalds, others become the corner store hamburger shop. |
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| Ummm...each of the 4 major US sports leagues have a different draft system. | ||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||
| >>The American draft has been challenged, beaten, reinstated, challenged, watered down and so on.>> Umm... each of the 3 major US sports has a different draft system. <<The most sense anyone has made here since my original post.<< ROFLMAO... Tickets on yourself chrishav? You're operating on the assumption that your first post made a lot of sense. Sorry, it didn't. Full of gross assumptions. - illegal? Ummm... no. If it were, it would be challenged. No-one's forcing anyone to play for the AFL. - immoral & akin to the Vietnam war? I'd think anyone who was actually involved in an armed conflict might find this offensive. Immoral? By what viewpoint? Merely because *you* say so? - You say 'rewards failure and punishes success', the other side of that coin is that it encourages balance, and discourages the existence of dynastic football teams. - Unnecessary - and the example you give is the NRL? That's pretty funny actually. As has been mentioned, chalk and cheese. A 'cancer on the game'? Yes, the sport isn't going gangbusters at all... I'm sure the-powers-that-be would all sagely nod their heads at your points, then merrily laugh their way to the bank. And your point on 'legality' of the CBA: pretty laughable. You're painting yourself as more knowledgeable than those that do it for a living? You figure that the agents et al haven't been through the draft, the CBA and whatever else in greater detail, with a better understanding, than anyone who posts on these boards? Seriously: as has been said - if it's not broken, don't fix it. |
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