By: pol_pak
16/06/2009
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Violence the way of traditional life
Stephanie Jarrett | June 10, 2009
IN his address to the National Press Club in 2003, Mick Dodson claimed that "violence is not and never was part of Aboriginal tradition ... We have no cultural traditions based on humiliation, degradation, and violation. Let me make this point abundantly clear. Most of the violence, if not all, that Aboriginal communities are experiencing today [is] not part of Aboriginal tradition or culture."
That denies the reality. Pre-contact Aboriginal society was very violent, and that violence and the cultural norms that sustained it continue to generate the extreme levels of violence in today's remote communities.
There is little point in criticising traditional Aboriginal Australia, unless traditions pose dangers for today's Aborigines, and unless we incorporate this reality into policy responses.
Despite considerable evidence that pre-contact Aboriginal Australia had high levels of violence, and that traditional norms concerning violence still operate, policy distortion continues because of a resistance to consider traditional norms of violence.
Even among intellectuals such as Joan Kimm and Louis Nowra, who have bravely pointed to pre-contact origins of today's high rate of Aboriginal violence, evoking the policy implications is resisted.
To secure a less violent, more positive future for Aborigines, today's restrictive conditions on inquiry and policy need to end.
The particularly high level of violence against women in pre-contact Aboriginal Australia can no longer be denied. First-contact explorers and colonists noted with distress the terrible scars and bruises that marked the women due to the frequent brutality of their menfolk.
Stephen Webb's palaeopathology studies....
http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,25197 ,25611112-25192,00.html
[go read rest] |
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By: pol_pak
16/06/2009
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Violence: An Inseparable Part of Traditional Aboriginal Culture
Dr Stephanie Jarrett
"There is little point in criticising traditional Aboriginal Australia, unless traditions pose dangers for today's Aboriginal people, and unless we incorporate this reality into policy responses. Despite recent scholarship that substantiates the pre-contact origins and traditional generators of contemporary Aboriginal violence, the policy implications of this are evaded, even by brave scholars who have undertaken this research."
Click here for more [600k PDF].
http://www.bennelong.com.au/occasional/stephFinal3 .pdf
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By: dallone.ranger
16/06/2009
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I read the whole article and have sent it to others, including,
Mick.Dodson@anu.edu.au
with this message;
Read this Mick Dodson, if you have the balls. You sir are a bloody liar, and an ignorant one at that.
I have lived in the NT well over 40 years, mostly amongst Aboriginal people. I know the violence and have seen it over and over. What you said here is total bullshit. I expect an apology from you for lying to the Australian people. (Maybe the ones down south don't know the true story, but many of us up here do.) You an "expert", what a joke. |
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By: unidentifiedbloke
17/06/2009
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Well done, Dallone.
I'll bet he doesn't take a bit of notice though. He has made a career out of speaking garbage and sucking up to pollies by saying what they want to hear.
If these people genuinely want to enjoy life and the benefits that mainstream Australians do, then they MUST attempt to integrate with the rest of society and stop hiding behind "traditional" practices. No one can have things both ways; it just won't work. If they choose to behave like idiots then that is how they will be treated. It is their choice.
They'd do well to forget about that white man's puppet, Dodson! |
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By: pol_pak
17/06/2009
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Dramatic increase in school suspensions
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/06/17/2600 481.htm
The Education Minister, Paul Henderson, has revealed that almost 650 students have been suspended this year, including 195 for abuse.
Mr Henderson has told an estimates hearing in Parliament that the abuse was either verbal or physical against teachers and other students.
He said in the year-to-date a total of 648 students have been suspended, including some for carrying dangerous substances and disobedience.
The figure is about 500 more than last year.
"This is due to the full implementation of the Safe Schools NT code of behaviour, including a zero tolerance approach to unacceptable behaviour," Mr Henderson said.
He expects the numbers to fall with the roll-out this year of a new student behaviour policy.
The Opposition Leader, Terry Mills, says more questions need to be asked about behavioural program outcomes.
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By: pol_pak
17/06/2009
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Does suspension of students for causing trouble help ?
OK, if it is their first or second try, it may, particularly with supportive parents.
However these students if causing the trouble suggested then unlikely their first time being in trouble, indeed may not be their first suspension.
Is suspension a reward for being naughty ?
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By: dallone.ranger
17/06/2009
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Well I didn't expect him to but Mick did reply;
----- Forwarded Message ----
From: Mick Dodson <DodsonM@law.anu.edu.au>
To: Dalone Ranger <dallone.ranger@yahoo.com .au>
Sent: Tuesday, 16 June, 2009 5:20:33 PM
Dear Mr. Ranger,
I do not intend to thank you for your childishly abusive letter. You should read my entire speech to the National Press Club, it goes into the use of violence in Aboriginal society in an open and honest way. I also spoke at that time about the corrupt use of violence by some Aboriginal men in particular as somehow justifiable in Aboriginal tradition or excused by Aboriginal culture. This 'journalist' has taken one passage out of a speech that ran for 40 minutes - it is easy to take anyone out of context or not allude to the full text to suit a particular purpose. Contrary to your view it took a lot of 'balls' to give that speech and rail against those who use their Aboriginal culture to excuse their violent behaviour. Don't believe everything you read in the papers particularly this one Mr. Ranger (you haven't got the balls to use your real name)
cheers
Mick
_________________________ _____
Professor Mick Dodson
Director
ANU National Centre for Indigenous Studies
ANU College of Law
Fellows Rd Acton 0200
Community Member (Pacific) United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues.
Mobile:0401 718 495
Fax:6125 0103 |
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By: dallone.ranger
17/06/2009
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----- Forwarded Message ----
There was another exchange between us before Mick wrote this to me;
From: Mick Dodson <DodsonM@law.anu.edu.au>
To: Dalone Ranger <dallone.ranger@yahoo.com .au>
Sent: Wednesday, 17 June, 2009 8:38:41 AM
Subject: Re: The case I mentioned. Are they lying Mick?
I forgot to mention to you that any reasonably competent IT person can trace anyone through their server - I might just ask my guy to have a go!
_________________________ _____
Professor Mick Dodson
Director
ANU National Centre for Indigenous Studies
ANU College of Law
Fellows Rd Acton 0200
Community Member (Pacific) United Nations Permanent Forum on Indigenous Issues.
Mobile:0401 718 495
Fax:6125 0103 |
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By: dallone.ranger
17/06/2009
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My final reply;
Just exactly when did you learn anything about fullblood Aboriginal people? According to Wik (above) it seems you have lived with white people for the majority of your life. I understand there are plenty of people who live down south who have jumped on the Aboriginal bandwagon for career purposes. Vic and the ACT are full of them, as you would know, it's an industry in it's own right.
Do you recall that while you were the senior legal advisor, and then director, of the NLC, under your watch, Aboriginal men were allowed to have sex with underage promised wives in the NT, with or without their consent, and that later on, another NLC director, often described as the most powerful Aboriginal man in the NT, threatened to bring down the NT Labor government if it went ahead with legislation to outlaw that practice, which would give Aboriginal girls the same rights as all other Australians. He of course lost his case.
Did it never occurr to you at the time that black girls should have the same rights that white girls enjoy?
You said;
"I forgot to mention to you that any reasonably competent IT person can trace anyone through their server - I might just ask my guy to have a go!"
Crikey son, the old shooting the messenger trick. Just remember, don't let 'your guy' do anything illegal, or even suspect, could come back and bite you on the bum.
I'm well aware you would have quite some resources at your disposal, how you use these resources is up to you. I would also remind you that your recent appointment was not necessarily the peoples choice. In fact it was a very unpopular choice according to many non academics I understand.
As for my pseudenum, that's my business. Why are you so concerned with it? Do you think I am someone down in the ACT who has woken up to you? Someone perhaps who, like me, wonders just when you had time to learn anything about fullblood Aboriginals in the NT etc. |
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By: dallone.ranger
17/06/2009
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My final reply concluded;
I would also remind you Mick that in Australia today there are some people who believe that there are always a few tall poppies who need to be cut down to size. You know, those who are full of themselves and perhaps use their position and influence in an incorrect manner. I can't think of any offhand myself, however I do know that the press, and the media in general love stories about people who fit that bill.
Anyway Mick, after you've finished sooling your IT guys onto me, and perhaps even your lawyers, (depending on the level of paranoia) then you can get back to making
statements about fullblood Aboriginals in the NT who live semi traditional lives, the ones you have so much knowledge about.
Cheers, Dalone.
PS, all my adult part Aboriginal children also feel strongly about Ab' men's violence towards their women and children. |
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By: unidentifiedbloke
17/06/2009
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Hi Dallone,
thanks for sharing those emails. I'm surprised that he bothered to reply but I had a chuckle at his "your childishly abusive letter" dig. He resorts to insults and threats and has a go at you!!! Nothing that bloke says impresses me and his weak attempts at making himself sound knowledgeable and important are just the usual mouthfuls of political correctness he usually sprouts.
He says "...about the corrupt use of violence by some Aboriginal men in particular as somehow justifiable in Aboriginal tradition or excused by Aboriginal culture." At least he acknowledges it happens and also that tradition or culture are used as excuses; I guess that is a start. How about educating his mates that it is not acceptable? As a Professor at the National Centre for Indigenous Studies; he ought to be well placed to educate these people about what is acceptable and what isn't, shouldn't he? I don't think "railing" against people in a speech at the Press Club quite cuts it but I guess he isn't in the business of upsetting people; more like sucking up to his pollie mates.
I wonder just what is studied at the National Center for Indigenous Studies; do they help their Indigenous mates to integrate into mainstream society or teach them that violence is wrong? |
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By: dallone.ranger
17/06/2009
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In Micks replies to me he twice said I should read the whole address he made to the Nat Press Club in 2003. I asked him where to find it but he didn't say. Anyway I finally found it.
His conclusion is similar to his beginning. The following is part of it.
~~~
"The violence occurring in Aboriginal communities today is not part of Aboriginal
tradition or culture. It is occurring principally because of the marginalisation of
Aboriginal people, the economic and welfare dependency, continuing high levels of
unemployment, the dissolution of our culture and tradition and the breakdown of
societal and community values".
~~~~
Like I said to him, BS! |
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By: pol_pak
17/06/2009
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unidentifiedbloke and dallone.ranger
FYI,
take a quick look at aus.politics
Topic: Violence
http://groups.google.com/group/aus.politics/browse _thread/thread/34e2546ef037777c?hl=en#
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By: pol_pak
17/06/2009
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Perhaps if take time to read through all of it might find exist some more similarities of thinking between him and Frank Brennan, chair of the government's National Human Rights Consultation Committee.
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By: pol_pak
17/06/2009
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Mission & Justice
Justice and Peace News from the Asia Pacific Region.
http://www.missionandjustice.org/brennan-says-he-i s-a-confirmed-fence-sitter/
. |
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By: peppe_le_pu
18/06/2009
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| Har, har, har, he pegged you in one- Dallone. You had NO BALLS to give him your name. Come on, mate, you tell only the truth( hardy har, har again) and have got nothing to fear. Give him your name, arrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrshole. Worried he'll sue you and win? Balls mate, where are ya balls? |
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By: dallone.ranger
18/06/2009
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| I notice you are using your real name here Pu. Full marks to you. |
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By: dallone.ranger
19/06/2009
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In her rebuff of Mick Dodson's apologetic speech to the Nat' Press Club in 03, Stephanie Jarret wrote;
"Sacred law discriminated on the basis of sex, with more prohibitions placed on women. Certainly, men faced restrictions on pain of death to many sacred places, objects and ceremonies. However, for a woman, there were more sacred objects that she could not see or touch, more sacred sites that she could not be in or near, and more sacred ceremonies that she should not participate in or witness, even accidentally, on pain of death.
Surely most nerve-racking, this could affect essential daily tasks such as water collection. As noted by the Strehlows, "even waters open to women and children, if they were at all near a sacred site, had to be approached carefully".
W. Lloyd Warner detailed several examples of east Arnhem Land's Murnjin men and women being killed for willing or accidental totemic and ceremonial transgressions, noting that "if women look at a totemic emblem they are killed by their own group".
Even husbands were expected not to save their "guilty" wife, although there were brave husbands who did."
Not long ago Ropes claimed I was lying when I recounted a story here which one of my fullblood wives (from Arnhem Land) told me about 20 years ago. It concerned her and some girlfriends (they were about 12 or 13 or so I think) who ventured too close to some men's business they didn't know about. Even though they saw nothing, some old men chased and grabbed one of them who, when she returned the next day, said those old men had all raped her.
This is what Mick Dodson said;
"IN his address to the National Press Club in 2003, Mick Dodson claimed that "violence is not and never was part of Aboriginal tradition ... We have no cultural traditions based on humiliation, degradation, and violation. Let me make this point abundantly clear."
Bloody BS! |
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By: steve_ropa
20/06/2009
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***Despite considerable evidence that pre-contact Aboriginal Australia had high levels of violence,***
where is the "considerable evidence". who complied the evidence, certainly not an indigenous person, probably some white armchair expert as usual. |
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By: jackbirdofpreyeagle
20/06/2009
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| I read some extracts from Mathew Flinders diary. One extract talks about how they pulled ashore up north and there was a human skeleton that was picked clean and sitting around a still smouldering campsite. All humans do bad things AND SURPRISE, EVEN ABORIGINES. |
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By: dallone.ranger
20/06/2009
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By our resident apologist, Ropes;
***Despite considerable evidence that pre-contact Aboriginal Australia had high levels of violence,***
where is the "considerable evidence". who complied the evidence, certainly not an indigenous person, probably some white armchair expert as usual.
~~~~~~~
No Ropes, not an Ab' person, because even today, 2009, many black people cannot read or write. So there was no way any black person could write about the inherent violence their culture is built on back in the early days of colonisation.
The considerable evidence comes from hundreds and hundreds of written down, eye witness accounts, from early colonists, explorers etc as they traversed the country.
Back in those days the Aboriginals didn't know how we viewed their violent ways and so they never attempted to hide them. Why even in the last 20 or 30 years in some remote communities little has changed when it comes to their violence.
You have seen that this violence has continued up till today in remote communities Ropes, just as I have. The only difference is that you turn a blind eye to it, pretend it isn't there.
But it is. Just ask the women and children who bear the brunt of it.
Fair dinkum Ropes, I cannot believe you want people to believe you are so totally ignorant of Ab' matters. |
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By: steve_ropa
20/06/2009
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| still doesn't answer the question, where is the "considerable evidence" to prove your opinion right? |
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By: steve_ropa
20/06/2009
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| all the violence you reckon is rampant in aboriginal communities and is part of aboriginal cultural life, and has been so before white fellas invaded the land makes no sense when it is a fact that aboriginal history goes back as far as 60,000 years or more. they survived because they didn't have the destructive traits of the white man. |
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By: dallone.ranger
20/06/2009
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By ropes;
all the violence you reckon is rampant in aboriginal communities and is part of aboriginal cultural life, and has been so before white fellas invaded the land makes no sense when it is a fact that aboriginal history goes back as far as 60,000 years or more. they survived because they didn't have the destructive traits of the white man.
~~~~~~~~
What absolute rot.
Lets see, in Ropes mind this is how a Ab' raiding party would get women from another tribe.
Sneak through the early hours of the morn to where they knew some smaller or weaker family groups were camped.
Then suddenly, throw their spears and nulla nulla's away and rush into the middle of the camp yelling.
Once all are awake, politely ask the male members of the group if they can take their wives and young girls.
The usual answer would 'Of course mate, I'm sick of this one, and anyway, I'd much rather go and collect firewood myself, and water, and look after the kids, and dig yams etc.'
Ahhh yes. Can imagine it happened just like that since time immemorial. |
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By: pol_pak
21/06/2009
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steve_ropa,
Truly it does not help to provide, so frequently, such displays of your own ignorance, even worse your extremist, prejudicial, fundamentalist, view of history.
Fundamentalism is exclusive, only those who preach and believe in line with their "truth" their interpretation are worthy to be called (cult) members.
Fundamentalist culture is failure of imagination, gradually dividing communities into those more fundamentalist and those who accept new views.
Are you our version of the fundamentalists in Iran ?
They are busy "correcting" Iranian voting errors, as brothers of those who strove to purify ethnic purity (eg Nazi Germany), or ideological purity (eg Communist USSR or Maoist China or Pol Pots Cambodia) ?
You seek we surrender those benefits change brought to return to a life without them...
IF you understood humanity, nature and history, thinking receptive to reality, you would understand, then accept, as uncomfortable reality how all cultures possess their own parts of history with violence, their own oppressors and victims, both within their culture and to outsiders.
You would understand each demonstrates their own tendency to blame others for failings, for they find doing so more comfortable than looking within ourselves.
Failing to look within themselves for own failings is why so many fail to adapt to the changes in the world around them, fail to take advantage of the opportunities available for a better life.
Full-fledged "fundamentalist" movements develop in protest against these changing mores in their cultures, some irony in how such increasing fundamentalism alienates, then converts even more within their community to where they accept then adopt the ideological opponent views...
Accepting changes where can improve things for self and community is for most an honorable and worthy goal.
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