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 Re:Greed is BAD - Now we suffer!
By: tigereye670
30/03/2009
7:55 am Yahoo! Profile:
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akdoc1, I agree about your title & what u say. I would simply have replaced greed with short-sightedness, as well as added lack of fgovernment oversight & regulation. Communication or should i say miscommunication is in my opinion one of the most critical reasons for disharmony, conflict and general problems between individuals & groups in the world. It is impossible to accurately or exactly convey our thoughts or to understand what others thoughts are except via maths.. Everything is understandably generalised for brevity sake, but the result is loss of truth, accuracy.
hmm, gambling, well everything in life is nothing but a gamble. Being involved in undertaking risk assessments for work i know this very well. Putting money in a bank is a gamble, the risk depends on the bank, country & other known & unknown circumstances as to how much risk there is of not only loosing it, but of inflation wiping out its value. Risk is 3 dimentional, not linear or simplistic. Value is not a set fact or figure, but a matter of perception. What the high risk lenders did was wrong if they broke the law which i hear they did by fudging figures. I heard the govt wanted these laons to occur to allow poor people to get their own homes. it seems to have backfired. Having been thru the last recession I had an uneasy feeling about how long the good times would last. The world & nature operates on cycles so the good times will return ... eventually... Many of the legally rich become so by taking risks & using their brains, working their butts off & not giving up after failures. The poor in our wonderful country generally do the opposite hence why rich get richer & poor stay in limbo since social security is so good. The great divide will always exist until the lower levels of society truly want to do better off their own backsides... cheers |
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By: forrestwicks
29/03/2009
9:02 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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| GET A JOB ! |
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By: akdoc1
28/03/2009
4:48 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Tigereye, as exploitation, advantage and greed are only arbitary social concepts, seeing that you understand what I mean, means the arbitary point has been reached and further defining is not neccesary. The original title Re:Greed is Bad - Now we suffer! was summed up by "They have brought us here as result of their own greed and by encouraging our own ..." so using your logic how would you redefine the Title.
I hold that I had no part in causing the "suffering" no one encouraged my greed. Any blame must lie with those stupid enough to gamble in an over inflated market and those stupid enough to give and take high risk loans, along with government advisors who were too stupid not see the crash coming 5 years ago. I feel the title should have been: Due to stupidity - Now others suffer. |
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By: tigereye670
27/03/2009
9:02 am Yahoo! Profile:
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“Taking advantage of people” whats wrong with that? They got themselves onto that situation so they must expect and accept the consequences, we all do. It is not my or your duty to make up for peoples stupidity or short-sightedness. I don’t mean people should be cold hearted so I try to help people who are momentarily down, but we should not be encouraging people to be weak, short-sighted, lazy, incompetent, etc, etc. That drags society lower, eg mass drinking, multigeneration unemployed, etc and also restricts peoples ability to get themselves out of their bad habits by pandering to their bad habits with free money or pity and excuses to continue being a liability to society. No one owes anyone else a free ticket to life. Society should however provide equal “opportunities” for all people to excel at whatever they choose. But people must make the effort. I received unemployment but I tried hard to find work, it wasn’t a “lifestyle” choice from laziness. People get what they deserve in a technical sense. If I stand in the middle of the road what can I expect other than to be run over. Moralising that its not “fair” that I get hit is stupid to the nth degree, and dangerous. Its promotes shedding your own responsibility onto others or society by playing the victim of the rich or poor background, etc. My parents were immigrants and worked long hours so that our family could not only prosper but contribute to Australia’s advancement.
The benefit was a generally comfortable life, the cost was less time with parents. People must understand there is a cost or price to everything, nothing is free. |
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By: tigereye670
27/03/2009
9:01 am Yahoo! Profile:
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akdoc1, I don’t mean to play on semantics but what is the definition of "exploitation” or “advantage”? We need to be much more specific. I know what u mean, but until u specify exactly, by example if u wish, then u cannot claim what is or isn’t exploitation.
For example, what is wrong with taking advantage of a situation? Animals will often scavenge “take advantage” on carcasses. That is good because it cleans up the environment preventing disease. Lions usually kill the weakest members of the herd thus keeping the herd more viable and reducing the herd’s impact on their food source preventing mass starvation or disease. People will often moralise about this and say its not “fair” or “right”. People can let their emotions overrule their logic. They have no real definition as to why technically its not fair, they simply have a vague notion and an uneasy feeling about a situation. Its all too easy to take the moral high ground especially when they don’t have all the details. I observe much hypocrisy in people who moralise or judge others. The road to hell is paved with good intentions as they say…
I know the law isn’t perfect, never can be specific or all encompassing enough, hence people can get around any law. But that’s not what I meant or what I do. I follow the intent of the law not the letter.
I don’t believe greed exists, or any adjective like “tall, fat, up, red”. Adjectives can only exist as concepts and only “relative” to something else. Eg, a tall man is not tall compared to a building. Only mathematics is accurate or real. Most people generalise but cannot specify or define greed exactly. And that is my point. Generalising is ok for quick discussion, but not when it becomes serious. |
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By: tigereye670
27/03/2009
8:15 am Yahoo! Profile:
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voyer1, no one really knows what God is, if he/it exists at all.
My years of ruminations into science, religion, spirituality, and just plain logic, suggests that god can only be explained in a generic sense, not in a religious sense which is a human invention that reduces god to a convenient and “understandable” concept for the masses to easily conceptualise. Love? who knows. The most likely description is that God, unlike a demi-god, must BE everything, perfect, the “be all and end all”. Suggesting anything less means God is not 100% and therefore drops it down to demi-god level like Zeus or just a relatively powerful being. Standard religions suggest god gets angry and punishes people... that means god cannot control his temper which is a weakness. Logic suggests this is rubbish.
God is energy, call it love if you wish, but from a scientific perspective for God to exist then he must be EVERYTHING in existence, as pure energy. That energy is “assembled” like “bricks” by his laws of physics, quantum physics and nature into the universes, planets, air, people, trees…. We are all made out of the exact same energy.. There is nothing in existence that is not OF God. Some suggest we are created by god and therefore separate from god, but that cannot be true either. Its all or nothing.
Hence I do not see myself as being any better or more “worthy” than a rock or any less than God personified.. If people truly believed this rather than limited religious concepts then they would have no excuse for hurting others or anything. |
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By: nz4forest
27/03/2009
3:17 am |
Message deleted. Reason: Breach of terms of service |
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By: akdoc1
26/03/2009
6:31 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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tigereye670
What you gain by not exploiting others or nature is rightfully yours. Exploitation is taking taking advantage of others even if it is legal to do so.
You give a good example of exploitation in saying "I do not feel teh need to give money to the poor to maintain their chosen non-working lifestyle." Those choosing non- workering lifestyles while claiming unemployment benefits are exploiting tax payers, just the same as employers who take advantage of workers, exploit the workers it is greed.
It is not a matter of legal, greed in any form is exploitation. So if you believe exploiting others is right, then for you greed is good. If you believe exploitation is wrong, then for you greed is bad.
However, it is always those who exploit others that shout the hardest about exploitation being wrong, when some one exploits them. |
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By: mentawaisurf
26/03/2009
4:51 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Allco's founder David Coe, who is largely to blame for the company's demise, recently sold his Sydney harbourside mansion for a reported $42m. He was last spotted skiing at Aspen.
When Commander Communications collapsed recently no entitlements were paid to employees yet the company's executives, who destroyed the company by loading it with debt, sold their shares and scooted off with bonuses before the inevitable collapse.
Storm Financial, backed by our largest and most reputable banks, loaned millions to low income earners, provided they mortgage their homes, so they could leverage these risky margin loans into our speculative share market. This just confirms how banks, anywhere in the world, are purely motivated by profit without regard for their customers (a modern definition of greed).
We'd better get used to such revelations. As the bear market unfolds over coming years this will prove to be only the beginning. |
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By: voyer1
26/03/2009
3:03 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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God is Love!
He made your Job, Money, Life. It is only a loan!
You come into the world with nothing & you leave with nothing!
Sorry |
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By: tigereye670
26/03/2009
1:15 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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new4mejem,
i was 23 when i finished uni & tried to find work, any work, often doing commission only sales. It wasnt until a lot of soul searching, & taking responsibility for my situation despite having what i thought was enough to expect a half decent job, that i realised that i was not sufficiently confident in myself & that i had to take the bull by the horns & be smarter & more focussed. After several low level jobs i finally made the breakthough in 1999 & have powered on ever since. In 2000 i bought my own house & spent the next 15 months renovating it after work. i now have another house with 4 years work on it. I deserve the rewards when i sell them because i earned them, not for any so called moral reasons, just logical practical ones. BTW, God did not put a roof over my head, my parents did, just like God is not respesible for the nasty things people do, neither is God responible for the good things people do. PS I believe in God, just not in a overlording one. There is no such thing as morilty, greed, hate, love, etc, etc. These r only adjectives describing "concepts" people have imagined. Hence God does not punish or rewrd people. these r human concepts, not universal ones used by peoplpe who with al due respect probably havent really thought outside the square & just accept what they are told. cheers frinds... oh yes, i very much appreciate now all teh hard earned lessons of life.. i treasure them all... |
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By: tigereye670
26/03/2009
1:03 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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akdoc1, It can be done respectfully by following the law. The law however needs to be adequate for the task. I treat people the same irrespective of their relationship to me, i do not favour one person over another unless they "earn" that right, eg, they work for me and i therefore pay them money. I do not feel teh need to give money to the poor to maintain their chosen non-working lifestyle. Those in genuine "temporary" need must be supported however & given opportunity to work again.
How do u technically define what is "rightfully" yours? Also, how do u define "exploiting". There r always exceptions to generalisations, but the exceptions should not be taken as the rule. As i see it, if you work for it, without hurting people or the envionment, and you succeed then you are not greedy. People introduce their own concept of "morality" and expect everyone else to agree & abide by their rules. The fact remains that i do not have to agree or abide by your rules of morility. I abide by logic and the civil & criminal laws and keep my own morals to myself. If u want a luxurious home, cars, etc, etc then that is your legal right... as long as the laws are adequate to protect the environment, etc. I also abide by the laws of nature, which is infinately more tried and tested than peoples "morality". "Morality" is often an excuse people use to abuse those they disagree with - the rich, poor, left, right, fat, thin, etc, etc. |
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By: queenofthewest@ymail.com
26/03/2009
11:38 am |
Message deleted. Reason: Breach of terms of service |
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By: mrowann
26/03/2009
10:34 am Yahoo! Profile:
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Before all of you started this conversation, it should
be establish a clear definition of greed.
When a drive to succeed ends and that bad habit called
greed beguns. To me it is a clear distinction between some-
one running his or hers own business and making good money
and someone siting on the board of an establish company
and getting pay an excessive salary not risking anything and contributing very little to the run of the business |
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By: vannersp
26/03/2009
8:32 am Yahoo! Profile:
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Actually it is more likely to be used by overworked, undervalued employees who see their bosses take home 5 or 10 times as much money while contributing little or nothing to the process.
The idea that because I start with a lot of money I should be given a lot more money is wrong. Having money often indicates nothing of where it came from, particularly "work ethics". Being "poor" (i.e. not having much disposable income) often indicates making bad choices in who to work for, not the willingness to work.
There are, of course, exceptions to these generalisations. I would suggest however, that this scenario fits many more cases than the alternative you offered.
Having money does not of itself indicate virtue. Often it hints of the opposite. In any real situation it pays to look at what is being done vs what is being paid.
My boss (who is on the board of directors) works a 40 hour week and takes home a decent wage, however he does not have the largest hourly rate in the company. That is ethical.
Some other CEOs and directors I could mention take home millions per year claiming "great responsibility" in their positions entitles them (not the hours worked), however of late they have proven irresponsible and short sighted but that has not stopped the gravy train. |
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By: andrewcmeier
26/03/2009
7:55 am Yahoo! Profile:
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It is through the hard work of your bosses that they have been able to pay you hundreds of thousands of dollars over the last 5-10 years. What have YOU done with that money?
Face it, without bosses having the incentive to run a business (money), the working class and lower class would not be enjoying the lavish lifestyles they have today. Maybe it's time to say thank you for those hundreds of thousands of dollars rather than waste it and blame others when that source of money runs out.
By the way, I'm not and have never been a boss myself, just a worker bee happy that I can earn a decent wage without having the risk and pressure running my own company would put on me. |
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By: new4mejem
25/03/2009
10:40 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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At what age were you when you became gainfully employed (full time) and also paid full rent or full mortgage for the 'roof over your head' and ALL the associated costs (services, rates, etc)?
You were truly blessed by God to have your parent's have you stay & live with them, after so many years as a student. Until you have your own place, with ALL RELEVANT BILLS paid BY YOURSELF (and maybe your spouse, esp.if you are RAISING A FAMILY), YOU REALLY CANNOT appreciate fully the extent of another's (even society's) generousity to yourself. |
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By: akdoc1
23/03/2009
2:35 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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tigereye670 quote:
"Greed is ok, but only if done respectfully?"
How can one be respectfull and greedy? Being greedy is taking more than is rightfully yours in other words you are exploilting other people which shows you have no respect for them. |
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By: tigereye670
23/03/2009
12:03 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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The real issue is short-term thinking or desires at the expense of the long-term consequences. Thinking long-term means you care about the consequences of your actions & r therefore less inclined to hurt others because it will eventually bite you.
And crucially you will not pander to your own short term desires to relax and squander your youth and meagre income on enjoying yourself. But will instead use discipline and focus on working/finding work and education that will set u up 4 life.
People need to understand that there are short and long-term consequences to all in/actions. Greed is ok, but only if done respectfully. And acting poor, innocent or victim like is not a saintly virtue, far from it. Rather, striving to be all that you can be not only helps yourself but also helps others in the long run.
As to who is guilty for our economic woes, everyone shares that responsibility to some degree. It does not belong to one group or another. Greed is not the cause or the saviour. Hard/smart work by everyone and long-term vision inspired by common cause and effect is the answer however. Cheers |
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By: tigereye670
23/03/2009
12:02 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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Greed- A selfish or excessive desire for more than is needed or deserved, especially of money, wealth, food, or other possessions.
Greed my friends is not the issue or problem, since it is an adjective that cannot be measured and therefore it is not real. What is excessive, at what EXACT point? There is no exact point and therefore these are nonsense terms usually used by some poor people or bleeding hearts to excuse their own laziness, stupidity or short-term thinking- to excuse themselves 4 spending their money on booze, drugs, gambling, etc, and for spending their days watching TV or entertainment rather than looking for gainful employment or educating themselves or saving what they can (and they can). I was unemployed during the last recession [in Oz] just as I left uni in 91. I struggled and persevered 4 yrs to find work any work. I lived with parents and saved whilst on unemployment. I saw the dead beats that didn’t care about looking for work or making themselves employable. They only have their parents to blame but also themselves as they get older and become responsible for their own actions, not the economy or anyone else. The poor get poorer because they don’t do what it takes to legally get richer, and rich do what it takes and can enjoy their efforts though it may be later in life that they finally do get to enjoy the rewards of their efforts. |
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By: steve_b_wilson
22/03/2009
8:35 pm Yahoo! Profile:
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I admit that there is certainly some amount of blame to be put at the doors of some of the common workers in this great land of ours..
But -
What about the bosses? How about the poor leadershiop which they have shown.
How about the damage that they have done to the honest, hardworking average guy and as a result his family?
Who is bringing these "fat cats" to task? Who is putting them in the spot light and asking...
Why did you bring us here without ensuring that the businesses you were managing did not have built in economic safeguards that would serve to protect the jobs of the employees should a disaster such as the one we are not facing occur?
They have brought us here as result of their own greed and by encouraging our own ...
Time is passing quickly and the remaining time you have to protect and secure your financial future before the factory shuts off the lights and closes its doors is running out! |
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